From: cosmorific	Date: November 19th, 2004 02:47 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel. ;)

	From: tviokh	Date: November 19th, 2004 02:52 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Ah, if I'd told you how I really felt, the whole post would probably look something like this:

A(s*&e)r(*#&@)($*@&#)(ijSD;GOKJAPREO85UQ3094875Q098sjdfOKj#_(*&)($*&!@)(#*&@!)( *%u98!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *HEADWALL*

	From: chaos_rose	Date: November 19th, 2004 02:52 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I love you. I do. Thank you for this over my first cup of coffee.

*reads it again*

Have I said that I love you?

	From: alison_in_oh	Date: November 19th, 2004 02:54 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Re. wildlife preserve...

Nothing's been decided about ANWR. Yeah, a Bush administration pretty much guarantees that the 1002 area will be drilled, but that's a drop in the ANWR bucket -- a smudge on the least-environmentally-sensitive edge of a huge reserve -- and I have every confidence that the drilling will be undertaken via the most modern, environmentally sound means.

Yeah, sucks that we rape mother earth to support our unhealthy standard of living, but whatcha gonna do. The oil's down there. When the peak comes in a year or two and demand outstrips supply, the public will clamor for that oil to come out in the quickest, messiest way possible. I'd rather get started now while the environmental cause still has a voice, and have that petroleum for plastics and other essentials in 10 years when the fields start producing.

The article you posted references the opening of the National Petroleum Reserves. Petroleum. Reserves. They were always going to be drilled when other supplies began running short. That time is now. They took an extra 5 years to open the reserves in order to re-work out-of-date environmental regulations. Admittedly said regs were railroaded through legislative processes thanks to Bush and the Republican majority, but you mostly want to take it up with the Dept of the Interior and the BLM, not so much the Oval Office.

Bush sucks smelly ass, but let's get this oil-drilling thing straight.

	From: tviokh	Date: November 19th, 2004 03:02 pm (UTC)		(Link)

. Yeah, a Bush administration pretty much guarantees that the 1002 area will be drilled, but that's a drop in the ANWR bucket -- a smudge on the least-environmentally-sensitive edge of a huge reserve -- and I have every confidence that the drilling will be undertaken via the most modern, environmentally sound means.


This is true, however, even modern methods are run by people, and people fuck up (as seen by the re-election of Bush).
When people fuck up, things get spilled, and many other species suffer for said fuck up.
I don't trust for one SECOND that they're going to stop there.
I don't trust for one second that they won't push further into the preserve if they think they can find oil.

but whatcha gonna do.

The logical path to take isn't really, "Hmm, oil, a non-renewable resource, is running low. Better start ripping up areas we haven't already devestated to find more!"
It should be, "Hmm, oil, a non-renewable resource, is running low. Better start working on ideas that use renewable energy so we don't run into a problem when it finally runs out."
And it will run out.
There's not an infinite supply down there.
Bush & Co can't seem to see that, and given that, it'll never be presented to the public as an option.

They were always going to be drilled when other supplies began running short. That time is now.

I don't consider that to be a good rationalization. There are other energy sources besides oil, we're just not using them and haven't bothered to try because even though in the back of our heads we know oil supplies are low, we still seem to be convinced that it'll last forever.

but you mostly want to take it up with the Dept of the Interior and the BLM, not so much the Oval Office.

And who has authority over them?
Who could stop them, ask them to look at other options?
Dear ol' Bushie.

Will he?

HA! Well, if I ever sprout wings, you'll know he has.

	From: jenihe80	Date: November 19th, 2004 02:55 pm (UTC)		(Link)

AMEN!

	From: anne_jumps	Date: November 19th, 2004 02:57 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	don't forget this

	From: miyuki_mina	Date: November 19th, 2004 03:01 pm (UTC)		(Link)

And since Bush is coming to Chile tomorrow, this fits well. People here are already wanking and even want to take him to Court for Human Right Violations.

* watches the "It's Time to Bomb Saddam" flash *

	From: tviokh	Date: November 19th, 2004 03:04 pm (UTC)		(Link)

People here are already wanking and even want to take him to Court for Human Right Violations.

You have no idea how much I'd love to see that.
Just don't wuss out like Belgium.

From: calico321	Date: November 19th, 2004 03:48 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Thank you. I'm tired of the 'let's get along' attitude. It's going to be a very long, angry four years.

	From: grayarcadian	Date: November 19th, 2004 08:51 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I think we have been trying to kiss the wrong set of asses as liberals. We should start trying to talk about the Constitution and reasonable solutions, not faith in God and America is this best/blessed country that can do no wrong.

What we need to do, really, is stop trying to be humble in the face of people who clearly have their facts wrong, or are asking us to accept the litteral word of a heavily edited and widely interpreted 2000 year book and start appealling to the reasonable, most urban people out there who really should be the new Dem base.

	From: snapefantasy	Date: November 19th, 2004 04:16 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Ahem... You missed one. He's also planning on taking away the tax cut that companies get for providing health coverage to employees. Soon as I find it again, I'll get you a link.

	From: tviokh	Date: November 19th, 2004 04:50 pm (UTC)		(Link)

One?
I think I missed a hell of a lot, but I don't htink it'd do to go into a frothing rage when I'm supposed to be chipper on the phone for customers. ;)

	From: calliopeia17	Date: November 19th, 2004 04:20 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Hello. Have friended you. In fact, I think I love you.

Thank you for totally saying everything I wanted to say. Well, actually I have said most of that. Just not all at once. So thank you for saying it all at once.


Fuck the lot of you, fuck the horse you rode in on, fuck the two horses that produced it, fuck the people who owned it, fuck the pastures from which it grazed, fuck the guy who made its saddle, fuck its groomer, and fuck the little girl who fed it apples.
Fuck the apples too.

Wow...this is, word for word, what I started to say the day after the election and held back on for some inexplicable reason (AKA cowardice). So, yeah, thanks for being braver than me, too.

Did I mention that I love you?

	From: silverhill	Date: November 19th, 2004 04:46 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Oh, I agree so much! And I'm sick and tired of being told that it's unfair to say Bush voters are stupid. No, they're stupid.

To blithely ignore the facts of Bush's presidency (or to be too lazy to learn about them in the first place) is stupid. To whine about how Clinton was a liar because he lied about Monica Lewinsky and then not care that Bush lied about stuff that actually affects the country is hypocritical and stupid. And even if you oppose basic human rights for everyone who's not still in the womb (i.e. gays, Iraqis, non-Christians, etc.), it's really fucking stupid to support raping the planet and ballooning the deficit and expect that things are just going to stay the same. I'm not some rah-rah environmentalist, but I do think that knocking down all the trees and using all the oil is a bad idea -- because then we'll have no trees and no oil and we'll be screwed. Self-preservation. It's not that advanced a concept. Cavemen had it. Why don't Bush voters?

	From: tviokh	Date: November 19th, 2004 04:49 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Clinton was a liar because he lied about Monica Lewinsky and then not care that Bush lied about stuff that actually affects the country is hypocritical and stupid.

Let's break that down:

Lied about a blowjob = BAD! OH MY CHRIST! IMPEACH! IMPEACH! HE SHOULD RESIGN!!!

Lied about reasons for going to a war = Well, he's just strong in his convictions, it's a good thing.

Tviokh's brain = *explodey*

	From: mooshka	Date: November 19th, 2004 05:28 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Time for me to learn the Taiwanese national Anthem. Already learning the Canadian one. People say "So where are you from" and I say "Southern Canada". I learned how to say NanCanADoRen before I learned MeiGuoRen. (southcanada/ american).

Fuckifyfuckingfuckbush.

	From: gypsydaj	Date: November 19th, 2004 05:54 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again…. your brilliant.

I don’t plan on keeping my mouth shut, there will be no healing in my ‘world’ for the next 4 years, not while I witness the mess my children and my grandchildren will inherent because of this administrations fucked up policies. Stay angry…. point out every thing they are doing…. yell it from the rafters. They are counting on us to become complacent.

I’m been yelling about Bush / Rove (because he IS Bushes brain) since the idiot was Governor of Texas…. all anyone had to do was LOOK at their handy work here in Texas…. they ran this state into the ground. But this is bigger then just Bush, this is a problem with the Republican Party and who is setting policy and the platform for that party. Nothing this administration wants to enact can get through WITHOUT the Congress voting to approve it…. Bush will be gone in 4 years, we’ll have 4 years of fighting to keep him from fucking things up so bad that they can’t be fixed…. but what then? It’s the direction and the platform of that party that could potentially ‘produce’ another president to finish what this one started. It’s the party machine that is getting these Senators and Representatives elected, it’s the party that is putting money into the campaigns of ‘like minded’ politicians and using Nixon style dirty tricks to ensure victory…I firmly believe that had the ‘Marriage Bill” not been on the ballot in key states Kerry would have won this election…. and Karl Rove confirmed that in a speech he gave in front of the Republican Caucus. So stay angry with Bush…. but direct a little of that anger at the party that got him elected by any means necessary.

	From: grayarcadian	Date: November 19th, 2004 09:01 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Want some of that Nixon style, "get my friends elected," fun? Read up on the Washington State Governor's race. Dino Rossi is a classic looks great on paper devout Catholic politician. His stances if you read a little futher in basically stands for kissing a lot of corporate ass and leaning hard (right) on those Christian values...

The amount of money the Republicans sunk into this state is awe-inspriring. You should have seen how much or commercial airtime he got over Gregoire.

	From: armeniel	Date: November 19th, 2004 05:59 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I know I don't comment much, but I just wanted to say that I'm very much with you on this one.

Another reason to hate the fact that Bush won: Blair's smug smile has returned. I see it every morning in my newspaper, and I've had enough. It was quite amusing when it almost disappeared in the weeks running up to the election when it looked as if Kerry would be the winner. I wish it could've gone for good...

	From: grayarcadian	Date: November 19th, 2004 09:03 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I'm going to ask you and my other UK pals: What is up with Blair? Labour is supposed to be the milder liberal party, right? Where is this guy getting his support?

	From: anotheralice	Date: November 19th, 2004 06:46 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Heh. Thought-criminal. ;)

I love you.

	From: litfiend	Date: November 20th, 2004 02:43 pm (UTC)		(Link)

heh. I'm willing to bet that more than a few of us have a scheduled appointment at MiniPax in the forseeable future.

	From: grayarcadian	Date: November 19th, 2004 08:26 pm (UTC)		(Link)

There is no way a sane, rational, intelligent human being could have supported this man.

I mostly agree. However, I'm willing to accept ignorance as a reason for any mistake. Continuing ignorance, no, but...

::sigh::

Well, here, if you (collectively!) promise to be nice or not comment at least:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/alleypat/360896.html?thread=442560

Truth is, I think most voters for Bush are like alleypat. They are on the conservative side. They are neck-deep in their own lives (She's ill right now.), and don't pay much attention to politics. They grew up with this shining PR of America the Great and Powerful Bastion of Freedom, that saved us from godless communism and now battles misguided heathans they feel they have little in common with. A man that comes off as (surface-wise) conservative, deeply Christian honest, and "does what he says he'll do," seems ideal under those circumstance.
As for things like the Patriot Act, why should they worry? They aren't checking out anything unseemly from the library. They aren't a Commie or Muslim or belong to anything anti-American. They don't don't have the free time like these "stupid college kids," to protest and "harrass cops." They have REAL lives, damnit! No one, except the terrorists, are coming after normal working folks! Bush says all he's doing is going to keep their loved ones safe and theand that's the priority. And America is the most powerful, blessed nation on Earth. Why not trust that? If Bush gives me money from my taxes and lowers the price of gas, too, well, that's supporting me and mine and not to some lazy person or forgiener who isn't working as hard as I am, so how can that be bad?

I don't buy any of it either, but I can't argue with that face-on.
I think that simplicity of belief applies to many. What I can do, is chip away at it by being knowledgable, sharing what's going on, and how it harms so many.

Christian fundamentalism clouding the judgment of the more conservative party in this country is doing the hardest damage. Real conservatism is cautious, but we are witnessing isn't cautious. It's preaches self-reliance and frugalness. These people teach Crusade and are willing to create debt-servatude for the next generation in order to fund it? Why should they care, after all? The Rapture is coming to wipe us all out anyway. (Provided of course we support *everything* Sharron says, because the Jew need to own Jeruselem for Revelations to happen.) The budget and the current tax program can hardly be called self-reliance or frugal.

People like you need to reclaim a conservative identity away from Christian hardliners. People like my husband need to reclaim their faith from these New Pharasees. finally, people like me need to *strongly support* people who are not like us, the people we'd normally spar with, but who are reasonable, intellegent, and willing to work with us for the common civic good for all of America across the land, not just certian segments of the population.

I also strongly believe we're all foot soldiers in this. The war against fear and hubris will be won one conversation, one protest march, one person, maybe even one LJ post at a time. It's also going to take awhile. Conservatism, by it's nature, is skeptical of ideas and truths other than the ones it already holds dearly. tviokh how long did it take you to realize Kerry was a man with some of your values and not just a Bush opponent for example? I know it took my until the debates and it sank in that he would have been great by the second.

	From: tviokh	Date: November 19th, 2004 08:37 pm (UTC)		(Link)

That post linked is full of so much blinding ignorance that I should not have read it without wearing sunglasses.

Ignorance is forgivable, if they're willing to slough it of and look at Bush for what he really is and what he's really done; at this point it doesn't look like alleypat is ready to leave the comforting blanket of ignorance.

And willful ignorance (i.e. "If I don't look at it, think about it, or hear it, it doesn't exist.") is not a forgivable offense in my book.

	From: katiescarlet	Date: November 19th, 2004 08:42 pm (UTC)		(Link)

*nods repeatedly*

Also very much LOL at the "horse, pasture, apples" progression. XD

	From: meepalicious	Date: November 19th, 2004 10:22 pm (UTC)		(Link)

If it weren't for Tim (and that small fact that it's still illegal,) I would most definatly want to marry you. <3

	From: _redpanda_	Date: November 19th, 2004 10:32 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I don't care how legal it is, she's marrying ME dammit!

From: narcissusblack	Date: November 19th, 2004 10:41 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I don't care if you think I'm close-minded or intolerant. I rarely, if ever, claim to be tolerant. My tolerance and level of open-mindedness do have their limits.

Hear, hear. There is someone i'm very close to just booting off my flist because of this attitude. I don't appreciate people who used to be very cool suddenly marching in and giving me a lecture on how i should be more open minded and then turning around and calling those who dislike Bush or don't feel particularly warm and fuzzy toward those who voted Republican 'idiots.'

In no way is that contradictory or anything. Perhaps i would not mind so much if he and his sockpuppet hadn't done the aforementioned marching in and then saw my lack of gratitude to somehow mean i don't like people disagreeing with me (when even a cursory glance at replies to my posts would show you that is far from true. What i don't like is being preached to *headwall*)

	From: devimelete	Date: November 20th, 2004 12:29 am (UTC)		(Link)
	Question.

Since you voted for Bush in the 2000 election, what made you change your mind about him? This is the first time I hear/read of a Republican changing his/her views on President Bush.

	From: tviokh	Date: November 20th, 2004 12:37 am (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: Question.

Mrrr, I already explained that in one of the threads in the political section of my memories.

In short, what I voted for was not what ended up moving into office.
IMO, it was a bait-and-switch.

He was, as he was on the campaign trail this time, a charming, moderate (by most standards), down to earth seeming, quirky, humorous, seemingly intelligent and capable individual. He was able to mingle with "common" people without it seeming forced, Gore always seemed...awkward and kind of boring and monotonous.

What ended up coming into office was the exact opposite of what was on the campaign trail.

Unlike Bush, I won't mangle the quote, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
Although, I think his mangled version, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...uh...can't get fooled again." might fit a little better, as I wasn't fooled again. ;)

	From: skadi	Date: November 20th, 2004 02:20 am (UTC)		(Link)

Word.

I got linked in here through someone (no idea who) and I've been reading some of your political posts. I'm really interested in them, so I'm friending you. Hope that's okay.

	From: gibbous	Date: November 20th, 2004 03:09 am (UTC)		(Link)

I made a post for neutrality on the night of the election. Of course, I'm paying for the self-pussification of my political viewpoint as we speak, and as such misfortune befalls me/America/the world, I don't plan on doing it again.

My parents voted for Bush because: they voted for him the last time and his name looks familiar.
A Catholic friend of mine voted for Bush because: he's against abortion. Only reason.
An actor from a play I directed voted for Bush because: his ex-girlfriend was voting for Kerry.

I see a pattern. It's fucking lame.

	From: rabbitwrath	Date: November 20th, 2004 05:04 am (UTC)		(Link)

Humanity depresses me. I want to join some other group.

	From: mt_straycat	Date: November 20th, 2004 06:15 am (UTC)		(Link)

*swoons* I love you. I really do. I know it's all sappy and shit, but you're my hero.

	From: bloody_vixen	Date: November 20th, 2004 08:31 am (UTC)		(Link)

*third edit*

ARGH! Damn LJ!

Anyway, I am still wondering how can some morons still thinks that he's going to do U.S.A and the whole damn world good, when it's obvious that he's severely incompetent.

	From: litfiend	Date: November 20th, 2004 03:08 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Right on.

Bush doesn't care about the environment. Why should he? He believes in the end of days, a literal interpretation of revalation. Why try save something that you whole-heartedly believe is going to be destroyed anyway? It's as if they think we're living in a condemned building. Why worry about cleaning up after the party if they're going to tear the house down tomorrow?

They don't want energy independence. When oil prices rise they get a big check in the mail. So do the friends and family they gave stock to. I imagine it's a big joke to them.

Bush was a board member for Harken Energy corp.
Cheney has his Haliburton thing.
Condolezza Rice was a board member for Chevron

Hell, there's a Chevron oil tanker registered in the Bahamas named the Condolezza Rice.

Those are just the ones I know off the top of my head.

The whole thing literally sickens me.

	From: kalimando	Date: November 21st, 2004 02:31 am (UTC)		(Link)

Fantastic, fantastic post!

Mind if I add you to my flist?

	From: tviokh	Date: November 21st, 2004 02:43 am (UTC)		(Link)

If you don't mind me asking you how you found my lj. :)